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Translation and transcription for a tattoo, Khuzdul/Cirth
#1
https://imgur.com/gallery/3UmXqQC

I am wanting the phrase, [b]Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! - Khuzdul[/b]
[b]Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!- English[/b]

put into Cirth runes or possibly neo-Khuzdul runes for a tattoo. I attached what I could come up with using appendix E in Return of the King. But i'm not sure it's correct because of the special characters and how the words are pronounced.

I'm sorry if this gets translated weird. I speak English and am hoping the browser will auto translate it correctly to French. If not I can try to google translate the post. 
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#2
Hello!

I see no auto translation to french (but I'm quit "not bad" in english :p, so good news), but also no attached pictures, so I can't say wether your transcription is good or not
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#3
By the way, there are no such things as "neo-Khuzdul" runes, since Tolkien stated that Dwarves used the Cirth (mainly) or the Tengwar (occasionally) for their writing. It shouldn't be difficult to transcribe this text into Cirth.
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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#4
https://imgur.com/gallery/3UmXqQC' pid='198345

I was able to upload the photo to imgur, and have added the link.
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#5
(18.10.2022, 10:04)Elendil a écrit : By the way, there are no such things as "neo-Khuzdul" runes, since Tolkien stated that Dwarves used the Cirth (mainly) or the Tengwar (occasionally) for their writing. It shouldn't be difficult to transcribe this text into Cirth.


Great, I was under the impression neo-Khuzdul was created for the movies and it was a bit more fleshed out than Cirth. I wasn't sure if the phrase would be able to be transcribed into Cirth.
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#6
Khuzdul is a Tolkienian language, and neo-Khuzdul its movie-related expansion by David Salo, as published Khuzdul vocabulary is rather limited.
On the other hand, the Cirth are a Tolkienian writing system which is rather well-known. Indeed, Tolkien has shown you can perfectly use the Cirth to write English.

That said, I've checked your transcription, and it looks like you're trying to use the Angerthas Moria mode. Still, if you check the linked page, you'll see there are three issues:
- You confuse the certh for D with the one for GW (true, they are quite similar) ;
- You don't take into account the long vowels in khazâd and mênu : check the long vowels in the table (they are marked with an acute accent, and are in fact modifications of the short vowels).
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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#7
Nothing to add from what Elendil said!
Only a few mor steps!
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#8
(18.10.2022, 13:26)Elendil a écrit : Khuzdul is a Tolkienian language, and neo-Khuzdul its movie-related expansion by David Salo, as published Khuzdul vocabulary is rather limited.
On the other hand, the Cirth are a Tolkienian writing system which is rather well-known. Indeed, Tolkien has shown you can perfectly use the Cirth to write English.

That said, I've checked your transcription, and it looks like you're trying to use the Angerthas Moria mode. Still, if you check the linked page, you'll see there are three issues:
- You confuse the certh for D with the one for GW (true, they are quite similar) ;
- You don't take into account the long vowels in khazâd and mênu : check the long vowels in the table (they are marked with an acute accent, and are in fact modifications of the short vowels).

I believe I have corrected it. Would it be correct to use Angerthas Moria or should I use Angerthas Erebor? Is there a more correct one?  If it makes a difference, I am using the transcription along with the axes Gimli uses in the movies for the tattoo.


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#9
Now, the inscription looks pretty much what I'd have done myself. I'd just glue ai to mênu (without hyphen in between), as this is what Tolkien did in similar circumstances when transcribing Quenya or Sindarin into Tengwar, and I think this should be the same here. Also, you may use three vertical dots at beginning and end of the sentence, as Tolkien did on the cover page of LotR (see here).

By the way, on the same page you have the reproduction of the Cirth on Balin's tomb, and it seems the Dwarves could also attach all words together without space or middle dot to separate them. Pretty correct too, but I wouldn't use it much, as it makes deciphering rather difficult.

Regarding the mode you adopt, I'd say it depends: if it's supposed to be an ancient inscription (e.g. on a heirloom axe), Angethas Moria is rather logical. If it's supposed to be a recent one (e.g. on a weapon forged for Gimli himself), then Angerthas Erebor would seem more appropriate. On Balin's tomb, Tolkien used Angerthas Moria for the Khuzdul inscription, and Angerthas Erebor for the Common Speech one. I believe only the Z certh changes between the two modes in this sentence.
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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#10
(18.10.2022, 17:15)Elendil a écrit : Now, the inscription looks pretty much what I'd have done myself. I'd just glue ai to mênu (without hyphen in between), as this is what Tolkien did in similar circumstances when transcribing Quenya or Sindarin into Tengwar, and I think this should be the same here. Also, you may use three vertical dots at beginning and end of the sentence, as Tolkien did on the cover page of LotR (see here).

By the way, on the same page you have the reproduction of the Cirth on Balin's tomb, and it seems the Dwarves could also attach all words together without space or middle dot to separate them. Pretty correct too, but I wouldn't use it much, as it makes deciphering rather difficult.

Regarding the mode you adopt, I'd say it depends: if it's supposed to be an ancient inscription (e.g. on a heirloom axe), Angethas Moria is rather logical. If it's supposed to be a recent one (e.g. on a weapon forged for Gimli himself), then Angerthas Erebor would seem more appropriate. On Balin's tomb, Tolkien used Angerthas Moria for the Khuzdul inscription, and Angerthas Erebor for the Common Speech one. I believe only the Z certh changes between the two modes in this sentence.

Thank you so much for all the help, I couldn't do it myself.
 
I think I will use Angerthas Moria, as the phrase is old and I like the idea of using the older runes to match it, to keep the legacy feeling. Would it also be appropriate to use the two lines on top and bottom of the runes to string a sentence together?
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#11
The horizontal lines are definitely Tolkien's own, so if you like the look it gives to the sentence, I'd see no reason to advise you against.
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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#12
(18.10.2022, 20:30)Elendil a écrit : The horizontal lines are definitely Tolkien's own, so if you like the look it gives to the sentence, I'd see no reason to advise you against.

 Hopefully one last thing. I was looking at the appendix and I noticed there is a rune for KH and a rune for +H.  for the word Khazad should I use K+H (two runes) or use KH (one rune). For future reference how would I be able to tell which one to use?  


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#13
You must use the KH letter. As well as using the TH pour Thorin.
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#14
(20.10.2022, 08:18)Yoeril a écrit : You must use the KH letter. As well as using the TH pour Thorin.

I am sorry to disagree, but the question is very relevant. Based on the Angerthas Moria description, I would personally use the KH rune, but in using this mode for the Khuzdul inscription on Balin's tomb, Tolkien used the combination K + H to represent the kh in Uzbadkhazaddûmu. See reproduction and transcription here.

So at least for Khuzdul, this seems to be the most authentic way to represent kh. This actually ties back to an interesting theory by Magnus Åberg on this sound in Khuzdul (see his analysis here in French; there's a link to the English original in the links at the bottom of the page).
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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#15
(20.10.2022, 09:38)Elendil a écrit :
(20.10.2022, 08:18)Yoeril a écrit : You must use the KH letter. As well as using the TH pour Thorin.

I am sorry to disagree, but the question is very relevant. Based on the Angerthas Moria description, I would personally use the KH rune, but in using this mode for the Khuzdul inscription on Balin's tomb, Tolkien used the combination K + H to represent the kh in Uzbadkhazaddûmu. See reproduction and transcription here.

So at least for Khuzdul, this seems to be the most authentic way to represent kh. This actually ties back to  an interesting theory by Magnus Åberg on this sound in Khuzdul (see his analysis here in French; there's a link to the English original in the links at the bottom of the page).

So, should I use the K+H as Tolkien used? The link you shared seemed to show the author using K+H a lot if I was understanding it correctly.
I also added an attachment of possible pronunciation.


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#16
(20.10.2022, 14:11)Murder Crow a écrit : So, should I use the K+H as Tolkien used?

In your case, this would be my advice.
Rollant est proz e Oliver est sage.
Ambedui unt merveillus vasselage :
Puis que il sunt as chevals e as armes,
Ja pur murir n’eschiverunt bataille.
La Chanson de Roland
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