Kehldarin a écrit :Ils forment l'immense majorité des domaines elfiques à l'est des monts brumeux (Lorien, Mirkwood), c'est donc à mon avis très possible qu'il y en ait d'autres encore à l'est. Ce n'est pas impossible qu'ils soient en même temps devenus sauvages, vu ceux de Mirkwood.

Iluvatar a écrit :

Kehldarin a écrit :Ils forment l'immense majorité des domaines elfiques à l'est des monts brumeux (Lorien, Mirkwood), c'est donc à mon avis très possible qu'il y en ait d'autres encore à l'est. Ce n'est pas impossible qu'ils soient en même temps devenus sauvages, vu ceux de Mirkwood.

Mirkwood, ce n'est pas le royaume du père de Legolas si je ne me trompe pas bien sur, pourtant vu comment il est décrit (légolas) dans le livre il m'a l'air tres bien eduqué...

(désolé mais je n'ai pas les livres à coté... )

Tom Bombadil a écrit :Mais si tu prends Bilbo le Hobbit, ils ont plus l'air fêtards que bien éduqués!!!

Elsie a écrit :Fêtard et bien éduqués ...C'est incompatible ?
Elsie

Kehldarin a écrit :Peut-être.

Mais effectivement, elfes noirs (moriquendi, de mor "noir", comme dans Moria ou Mordor) désigne tous les elfes qui ne sont pas allés à Valinor : Avari, mais aussi Sindar et Nandor, donc on ne peut pas vraiment être sûr.

Elsie a écrit :Fêtard et bien éduqués ...C'est incompatible ?
Elsie

Celebrimbor a écrit :Je pense pas que ce soit incompatible : je suis les deux
Non je crois que ce que Tom veux dire par là c'est que leur côté fêtard, les rends insouciants, et plus "légers" d'esprit.

Citation :Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. [...] Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves.

Citation :The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar [n.b. du Second Clan], who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.

Citation :For in contrast the Lindarin [n.b. du Troisième Clan] elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.

Citation :The first Elves that Men met in the world were Avari, some of whom were friendly to them, but the most avoided them or were hostile (according to the tales of Men).

Citation :Eöl was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Ñoldor). He dwelt in East Beleriand not far from the borders of Doriath. He had great smith-craft, especially in the making of swords, in which work he surpassed even the Ñoldor of Aman; and many therefore believed that he used the morgul, the black arts taught by Morgoth. The Ñoldor themselves had indeed learned much from Morgoth in the days of his captivity in Valinor; but it is more likely that Eöl was acquainted with the Dwarves, for in many places the Avari became closer in friendship with that people than the Amanyar or the Sindar.

Citation :They [Les Avari] had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendī, the People, regarding those who went away as deserters [...]